DEMISE: Rise Of The Ku'tan
Category: FAQ
Author : Celine Aensland
Contact : ce.aensland at gmail dotcom.
Version : v0.5. A lot of rearranging and cleanin up done, should resemble
a FAQ more than a random collection of notes now.
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It always bugs me when FAQs aren't dated. You go email the guy and he'll
be like, "oh I quit 5 years ago". Jeez. Anyway, below is the version
history for this particular piece.
Alpha version dated : Sunday, 12th October 2003, 11:50pm GMT+8
Beta 2 version dated : Wednesday, 14th June 2006, 11:15am GMT+8
( crud, it's been THAT long? )
Beta 3 verison dated : 1 October 2006
v.05 version dated : 8 October 2006
History : Alpha - Sunday, 12th October 2003, 11:50pm GMT+8
Initial release, mostly draft notes.
Alpha 2 - same week
Cleaned up the notes superficially
Beta - same week
Cleaned up FAQ layout. Typos. Added stuff.
Beta 2 - June 2006 update. Omg. So much stuff.
Beta 3 - October 2006 update. Been busy with other games.
Seriously. Added install directions, ToC, and
rearranged and reformatted a lot of crap.
v0.5 - October 2006. A LOT of rearranging and cleaning
up. Should start to look more like a FAQ than a
random collection of notes.
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===== [ TABLE OF CONTENTS ] =====
It's about time this FAQ had one :p
- Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [INT]
- Installation and Patching . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [INS]
- Some Useful Tables . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [TAB]
- Guild Overview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [GUI]
- Race Based Guild Suggestions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [RAC]
- Your First Character . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [1ST]
- Penalty Info . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [PEN]
- Brawling Party . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [BRW]
- Suggested Parties . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [SUG]
- Misc Tips . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [MSC]
- Old Notes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [OLD]
- Bugs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [ERR]
To quickly scroll to a section, simply search for the 3-letter string
in brackets, e.g. search for [INT] to go to the Introduction section.
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===== [ INTRODUCTION ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [INT]
This thing started life resembling more of a collection of tips gathered
from various reviews and websites months (maybe even years) ago, rather
than an actual FAQ. Sorry for not noting who the sources were, but at that
time I wasn't expecting to write one.
My additional notes and comments were originally written in [square
brackets], but since I used those to prettify section headers, I'm in a
bind and have to edit them all. Ugh.
Abbreviations:-
Str = Strength Art = Artisan Thf = Thief
Int = Intelligence War = Warrior Bar = Barbarian
Wis = Wisdom Pal = Paladin Mag = Magi
Con = Constitution Nnj = Ninja Sor = Sorcerer
Cha = Charisma Vil = Villain Wlk = Warlock
Dex = Dexterity Epl = Explorer Cle = Cleric
[G] = Good alignment
[N] = Neutral alignment
[E] = Evil alignment
Character combo notation example: Dwarf[N] (War)/Thf/
"race[alignment] (starting guild)/other guilds/"
So this example means a Neutral Dwarf character started as a Warrior and
later on joined the Thieves' Guild, and may optionally join the Clerics'
Guild if you so wish. If there is a number after the guild, means to only
level in that guild up to that level - usually this is for weaker
characters that have low hp-bonus levelups, who join a strong hp class
early in the game (famously, Artisan 30), or for builds that just want a
certain level of that guild for using some specific item (not recommended
by me, I have no experience here and cannot advise on this).
Lastly, most of my views are from a stat-wise point of view (veterans may
disagree, let me know if you spot a blatantly bad choice). I'm not
discouraging weird guild combos, if you absolutely want to play an Evil
Elf Explorer, go ahead by all means. This guide is mostly for those people
wanting to start a balanced singleplayer 4-person party team, and I'm
pointing out where the numbers lean to.
I don't believe that Demise is ever "easy" - in the intervening years
I've played a whole bunch of games, PC and console (my personal library
stands at over 500 titles combined for almost all consoles and handhelds),
I feel I have enough experience to judge whether something is "easy" or
not for the average casual gamer...
...and there's nothing casual about Demise. It's pure distilled dungeon
crawling, there aren't any NPCs down there to help you and hold your hand.
If you get in over your head you can't miss the signs, the monsters will
be quick to oblige by handing you your ass. And that's a great thing - the
game will never be easy. None of that "ok, I've got the complete King's
set / reached level X, I am now invincible" crap you see in so many other
games.
Of course, veterans from Mordor (the original game) would probably scoff
but this guide isn't intended for them. Knowing everything about the depths
will undoubtedly make things less intimidating. But for the newly initiated
Demise can be unforgiving, and despite my great liking for the game it's
really very hard to stay with. Obviously it's good enough to keep me coming
back for more though.
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===== [INSTALLATION AND PATCHING ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [INS]
As of 2006, Demise is already at least half a decade old and has gone
through a couple of important patches. Get them! The original version
suffered data-file bloating which would eventually crash upon trying to
load the dungeon. This meant the loss of ALL your characters, since if you
merely reinstalled and copied over the data, you'd still run into the
crash.
There are patches for both the executable and dll files. Here are the
steps you need to install the latest version of Demise:
1) Install Demise, but DON'T start it
2) reboot
3) Start game, create a character, enter the dungeon
4) Exit game (leaving character in the dungeon)
5) Install DEMISEPatch1.00r3.1.EXE
6) reboot
7) Start game, load the character, enter the dungeon
8) Exit game (once again leaving character in the dungeon)
9) Install DemisePatch353.exe
10) reboot
11) Install the DemisePatch353DLL.exe
12) reboot
That's it, the next time you run the game you should be up to speed.
As a precaution whenever you exit the dungeon and resurface in town,
exit the game after you're done shopping. Used to crash here a lot,
probably due to memory leak issues in the unpatched versions.
Anyway, it only takes a short while to exit and restart the game - and
if possible do the backup save option instead of just quitting (the game
will prompt you to quit anyway after making a backup).
Better safe than sorry. I don't want to waste another high level party
I'd sunk weeks and months of effort in.
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===== [ SOME USEFUL TABLES ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [TAB]
Stats summary from Demise guide, text formatting fixed by yours truly,
and re-sorted based on Racial Experience Factor, the determinant which
affects how fast a given race will progress to the next level - the higher
this modifier is, the more experience a character of the given race will
require to level up.
[ Racial resistances ] - (humans, unlisted, have none)
Race Fire Cold Elec Mind Dise Pois Magi Ston Para Drai Acid summary
Yeti 35% 35% 35% 50% - - 40% - 95% 65% 50% elem, mind, drain
Dwarf 45% 80% - - 50% 50% - 40% 50% 90% - elem, dis, drain
Troll - - - - 45% 45% - - 45% 65% 25% disease, drain
Ogre 75% 75% - - 50% - - 50% 75% 75% 15% elem, ston, drain
Gnome - - - 40% - - - 25% 25% 25% - mind, drain
Elf - - - 50% - - 80% - - - - mind, magi
Giant 50% 50% 50% - 50% 50% - 25% 50% 50% - elem, dis, drain
Saris - - 90% 90% - - - 90% - - 90% mind, ston, acid
[ Race stats ]
Race Age ExFt Str Int Wis Con Cha Dex G N E Bre Eye Note
Human 100 3 4/17 4/18 4/18 6/17 5/18 6/18 X X X 1 3 .
Yeti 175 4 7/19 4/18 4/19 3/15 2/14 4/20 X . X 8 3 =
Dwarf 275 5 4/19 3/18 6/19 4/19 2/16 4/18 . X . 1 7 o
Troll 285 6 8/20 4/18 2/18 5/18 2/16 7/20 X X X 6 9 =o
Ogre 250 6 8/21 2/16 2/16 10/20 4/18 5/16 X X X 5 5 =o
Gnome 315 7 3/17 6/19 6/19 3/18 8/23 6/18 X X X 3 2 .
Elf 450 7 2/14 7/21 7/20 2/15 4/18 4/19 X X X 1 6 o
Giant 225 7 10/24 3/17 3/17 8/18 2/15 4/18 . X . 3 1 .
Saris 325 8 4/17 4/18 3/18 6/17 4/17 10/23 . X . 2 8 o
ExpFt = Exp Factor, higher = more needed to lvl;
Note: . n/a, = good breathing, o good sight
Natural stats can't be raised more than max+5, e.g. Ogre Con = 20+5 = 25
Sorted by race:
Str 14-24 Elf, Gnome, Human, Saris, Dwarf, Yeti, Troll, Ogre, [Giant]*
Int 16-21 Ogre, Giant, Dwarf, Human, Troll, Saris, Yeti, Gnome, [Elf]
Wis 16-20 Ogre, Giant, Human, Troll, Saris, Yeti, Dwarf, Gnome, [Elf]
Con 15-20 Elf, Yeti, Human, Saris, Gnome, Troll, Giant, Dwarf, [Ogre]
Cha 14-23 Yeti, Giant, Troll, Dwarf, Saris, Ogre, Elf, Human, [Gnome]*
Dex 16-23 Ogre, Dwarf, Human, Giant, Gnome, Elf, Yeti, Troll, [Saris]*
[Bracketed]*Starred = overwhelmingly the choice
[Bracketed] (no star) = highest but not by too much
Int & Wis weighted together if tied (i.e. if same int, then compare wis,
and vice versa)
Cha -> Int & Wis weighted together if tied (only Mag or Pal need Cha,
so compare with both Int & Wis)
Dex -> Str & Con weighted together if tied (Dex important for fighters)
[ Race & Guild allowed combos ]
GNE GNE G.. G.E ..E GNE .N. .NE GNE G.E GNE .N.
Art War Pal Nnj Vil Epl Thf Bar Mag Sor Wlk Cle
Yeti Norm X X . . X X . X X X . .
Dwarf Smal X X . . . X X X . . X X
Troll Norm X . . X X . X X . . . .
Ogre Big X X . . . . . X . . . .
Gnome Norm X . X . X X X X X X . X
Elf Smal X . X . . X X . X X X X
Giant Vbig X X . . . X . X . . . .
Saris Norm X . . . . X X . X . X X
(Humans unlisted... they have no guild restrictions)
[ Guild stats ]
Guild HtRg MxLv ExpFt Quest Max-A/D Str Int Wis Con Cha Dex G N E
GNE Artisan 5 30 8 10 200 1 1 1 1 1 1 X X X
.N. Thief 3 21 15 5 400 9 12 8 5 5 16 . X .
GNE Warrior 6 26 16 10 450 14 6 6 10 4 8 X X X
.NE Barbarian 4 29 18 10 525 12 8 8 10 4 15 . X X
GNE Explorer 4 27 18 10 430 12 13 13 10 4 12 X X X
G.. Paladin 5 29 19 15 430 14 9 9 8 16 12 X . .
G.E Ninja 4 25 21 20 465 14 10 8 8 6 16 X . X
..E Villain 4 26 21 15 440 14 13 8 12 4 16 . . X
G.E Sorcerer 2 29 27 5 475 7 14 13 12 5 10 X . X
GNE Magi 3 27 27 5 475 6 12 13 8 12 13 X X X
GNE Warlock 2 38 30 5 625 10 18 18 12 8 14 X X X
.N. Cleric 2 28 32 5 475 8 14 14 10 8 14 . X .
HtRg = avg +maxHP per lvlup until charlvl=MxLv;
after charlvl=MxLv, +1 or +2 per lvlup depending on guild
ExpFt = Exp Factor, higher = more needed to lvl
Quest = %chance to be given a quest after lvling, to be completed before
allowed next lvlup (you apparently can forfeit these random quests,
at the expense of a couple of levels exp).
[ update: apparently only up to lvl 101 - maybe you're too strong after
rising that far to qualify for any more quests ]
Max-A/D = charlvl where you attain max att/def mods for that guild
Note: A character will only receive HtRg HP when making a level in
a guild if that guild is the 'highest' guild the character is a
member of (e.g. a level 25 Cleric will not gain any HP making
level 26 if the character is also a level 30 Thief. The Cleric
would need to make level 31 (because they were also a level 30
Thief) before they received any HP -- and by that point, MxLv
would have been passed, so the character would only receive 2HP
per lvlup). Artisan however only gains 1HP per lvlup after MxLv.
[ Other skills ]
Guild A B C D E F G Key
Artisan 5 . . . 7 3 1 A = Thieving ability
Warrior 2 . 9 5 12 2 3 B = Backstab
Paladin 2 . 5 2 10 3 4 C = Critical hit
Ninja 7 2 5 8 10 6 2 D = Multiple swing
Villain 6 4 1 3 8 4 5 E = Fighting ability
Explorer 3.5 . 3 . 9 9 6 F = Perception
Thief 9 9 . . 6 5 3 G = Language ability
Barbarian 7.5 5 . 1 8 3 2
Magi 2 . . . 5 3 7
Sorcerer 2 . . . 5 2 7
Warlock 2 . . . 5 2 8
Cleric 2 . . . 5 2 6
Multiple swing grants additional swings of a weapon in combat
Perception is also aided by guild lvl, int, wis
Extra Swings (1st = 1st extra swing, etc)
Guild 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
Ninja 28 60 131 287 629
Warrior 46 162 578 - -
Paladin 50 192 ?? - -
Villain 53 243 800(?) - -
Barbarian 59 268 - - -
3rd Swing for villain is uncertain, but '-' indicates I am fairly certain
that guild does not get this number of extra swings. Therefore, if you want
extra swings, then the ninja's guild is really your only option. Three
extra swings before warrior (who is next best) even gets their second
completely blitzes all competition. I doubt that any other guild will get
a 4th extra swing, and most guilds will get their 3rd extra swing at very
high levels.
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===== [ GUILD OVERVIEW ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [GUI]
[ Artisan ]
They give the highest initial HP except for warrior, and provide the best
A/D until level 235. They don't give any other particular advantages, and
since they give quite a high experience penalty on other guilds due to high
A/D, many characters do not go beyond lv30 in artisan. However, few chars
do not go at least this far (lv30) for the HP it provides.
[ Warrior ]
Give the highest HP until MxLV, and give the second best A/D. They critical
hit far more often than anyone else, and their fighting ability allows them
to deal out stacks of damage even without a critical hit. They are also
second in line (equal with paladins) to be able to use items (in terms of
level required). Doing large amounts of damage, and frequently critically
hitting means that at least one of these guys is virtually in any party.
[ Paladin ]
A warrior of less ability, in areas of fighting, critically hitting, and
extra swings, these warriors are capable of minor healing to make up for
their reduced prowess in combat. This skill makes them valuable in a party,
as a fighter who can heal themselves does not require spell casters to keep
him alive. Good aligned elves are often members of this guild, to give them
some fighting ability. Not overly valuable, but can be useful depending on
party makeup.
( Besides Humans, only Elves and Gnomes can join - and interestingly enough
neither of them can join Warrior. A point in favour of joining it if
you're playing one of those and are of good alignment. )
[ Ninja ]
The deadly ninja, able to both critical hit & backstab (though it has the
worst backstab ability) is a valuable addition to any character. Often they
chew up nearly all monsters in an encounter in a single round, and in a
party, it is often necessary to frequently shift these characters to the
back of a party so other members can get experience. However, their ability
does come at a cost, getting penalties to other guilds up to high levels
very quickly.
[ Villain ]
Quite a powerful guild, having access to minor healing spells & decent
attack spells (element & morkal alchemy). They have a reasonable fighting
ability and are reasonably good. However, given the penalty they give to
other guilds, often it isn't worth having in your character.
( My take: useful in some racial combos, otherwise not recommended. )
[ Explorer ]
A fighting guild which is very good at moving around and have very high
perception. These guys are vital if you get lost. Being able to find their
position quickly gives them a much better chance to survive if they happen
to drop down a chute or accidentally teleport. They can also cast some of
the less powerful resistances, though it is better to have a sorceror cast
these spells for you. Quite useful.
[ Thief ]
Being undoubtably the best at opening chests, be they magically locked or
armed with a nasty trap, every party should have at least one thief. Having
magical entry at a minimum cost of 3 mana, and the only ones to be able to
cast dispell magical lock (min 6) and destroy container (min 12) makes
these guys the natural choice for disarming those horrid traps - especially
those big corrosion traps that threaten to destroy your fighter's prize
sword, or any other traps for that matter.
[ Barbarian ]
A cross between the thieves & warrior's guild, results in a less effective
thief - they have worse A/D, and are only one up on thieves with respect to
their fighting ability. So, they are really just thieves, with a slightly
improved fighting ability, but worse thieving & backstabbing ability. While
they could be useful is some situations, often it is not be worth the extra
time & effort joining this guild.
( Not my choice, for same reason as Villain. )
[ Magi ]
The sole guild to be able to charm monsters, this is another guild which no
party should be without. When your characters get quested to return a
monster, the magi can search and return with the beast - often avoiding a
pinning situation. Having also an ability to cast some healing, movement
and location spells also increases the abilities of characters in this
guild. They can often provide an extra healer to a party.
( Good to combo with Paladin due to sharing of the Cha requirement. )
[ Sorceror ]
The sole users of fire, cold, electrical and elements spells, members of
this guild can also cast morkal damage, death & alchemy spells - this wide
range of offensive spells provides them with the ability to kill creatures
that other spell casters have to just attack with their weapons. Their
ability to easily damage or destroy large numbers of creatures is unique
to their guild, and this offensive ability is the often the best way to
annhilate large groups of monsters. When encountering a large group of
thieving monsters, a sorceror can cast a powerful spell to kill most of
the monsters in one round - so the monsters are unable to steal items or
gold and then run away. They also cast resistance spells for the lowest
cost. Every party should have at least one, and seriously consider more.
[ Warlock ]
Being a general all round spell caster, warlocks do not focus specifically
on any type of spells, but try to master as many as possible, which results
in them often learning spells at a later level than other guilds. However,
they provide characters with the ability to maximise their HP early on,
and are just as effective as explorers at moving around the dungeon. They
can cast all resistance spells, but drain more mana than sorcerors. They
also have the best language ability - which is useful for finding out
information off monsters. Providing characters with a wide range of spells,
the most valuable probably being the movement spells, the warlock's guild
is a good addition for most characters.
[ Cleric ]
The best at healing both themselves and others, clerics are all but
essential for survival - especially when you start to go deep into the
dungeon. The ability to heal massive amounts of hit points with minimal
effort via restoration (min 7) and mass heal (min 8) is something you
shouldn't go without. The ability to resurrect (min 12) - which brings a
character back to life and to full health is reason enough to join this
guild. At least one member of a party should be a cleric, because of the
far superior healing ability.
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===== [ RACE BASED GUILD SUGGESTIONS ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . [RAC]
Note that these are just suggestions based on how valuable they are to a
character succeeding. While I may suggest that a character does not join a
particular guild or play a particular alignment, it does not in any way
mean that it would not be fun to do so - I think the game is fun pretty
much however it is played :) Also note that most characters are assumed to
be members of the artisan's guild.
=[ Human ]=
Multi-class, multi-class, multi-class! Often found as good or evil,
allowing them to join the ninja and sorceror guilds - which is probably the
most powerful combination of two guilds in the game. All human characters
should be given maximum HP by using warrior, artisan, warlock maximum HP
route, and focus more on fighting, or evenly on fighting and spellcasting.
Guilds not to join:
- Explorer - gives heavy penalty due to fighting ability, and spells could
be obtained with less penalty from Warlock.
- Paladin - fairly poor fighting ability, and healing ability is outweighed
by either the Magi's guild (with charm) or Cleric's guild.
- Villain - Heavy penalty, and a ninja/sorceror combination is far more
powerful.
- Barbarian - Stupid if neutral as thief is far better, and a waste of time
if evil as it will give a moderate penalty for only decreasing the cost
of magical entry.
Suggestions: (include low warrior and warlock for max HP where not noted)
- Good/Evil Ninja, Sorceror, Magi - well rounded abilities.
- Good/Evil Ninja, Warrior, Warlock - does lots of damage in combat due to
multiple swings and fighting ability. Warlock's spells are also a great
complement, but warlock will suffer heavy penalty.
- Good/Evil Ninja, Warrior, Sorceror - similiar to above combination, but
the damage and resistance spells could be considered more favourable
than the movement and other spells of the warlock.
- Neutral Warrior, Thief, Cleric, Warlock. While the best neutral chars
are probably dwarves or saris, this is still quite a good character.
=[ Elf ]=
Elves undoubtably make excellent spellcasters so pump that INT and WIS.
They are often good so they can join the Paladin's guild to give them
some fighting ability in case their spell points run out. Elves are also
usually good or evil, allowing them to join the sorceror's guild, but
neutral elves are still quite powerful.
Suggestions:
- Good Sorceror, Magi, Warlock, Paladin - can fall behind on exp, but is
very valuable in moving around the dungeon and casting offensive spells.
- Evil Sorceror, Magi, Explorer - Explorer will still give reasonable
fighting ability and only a small amount of offensive capability will be
lost with the removal of Warlock.
- Neutral Cleric, Thief, Warlock - keeping cleric with the highest level
will reduce its penalty as well as increasing the potency of the healing
and damage spells. Valuable for opening chests and moving around also.
Backstabbing ability of thief will result in some usefulness in combat.
=[ Giant ]=
They can only join Warrior, Explorer and Barbarian - and are usually found
as characters in all these guilds. Barbarian gives a low magical entry cost
and backstabbing ability, Explorer gives movement spell ability, and
Warrior allows them to flaunt their natural strength. Usual order of
importance is Warrior, Explorer and Barbarian. Barbarian helps other
characters with thieving, and also prevents the character from being robbed
blind by stealing monsters. Give them high constitution to begin with to
maximise their HP (as they are usually frontline fighters), then start
building up their strength.
=[ Gnome ]=
Masters of charming monsters, gnomes are practically always in the Magi's
guild, and their high charisma means many monsters will simply join them
without having to be charmed. Having a higher CON and STR than elves, they
tend to suffer less from lagging behind in exp.
Guild not to join:
- Barbarian - thief is better if neutral, and villain is more rounded for
an evil gnome.
Suggestions:
- Good Magi, Paladin, Sorceror - good at charming + decent fighting skill.
Offensive sorceror spells are also valuable.
- Neutral Cleric, Magi, Thief - similiar to the Elven Cleric, Thief,
Warlock, but with companions could be considerably more powerful.
- Evil Magi, Sorceror, Villain - Villain will give a penalty to Magi and
Sorceror, so they should be considerably higher in level.
- Evil Magi, Villain, Explorer - Explorer could be removed entirely, or
just gained up to obtain minimum cost movement spells.
=[ Dwarf ]=
Dwarves can only be neutral, allowing them to join up with any character or
party. They are quite versatile, and the combination of their good stats as
well as being able to join four good guilds results in dwarves being quite
popular characters.
Guild not to join:
- Barbarian - A combo of Warrior and Thief is far better, both for fighting
ability and for chest opening/trap disarming spells.
Suggestions:
- Warrior, Thief, Cleric, Warlock - with all these guilds this char might
level slowly but has virtually all the skills required to survive the
dungeon solo.
- Warrior, Thief, Cleric, Explorer - will lack some spells (morkal death &
high resistances) but will have far better perception.
- Warrior, Cleric, Thief - eliminating warlock/explorer means loss of
movement spells, but the increased leveling in cleric (and hence healing
and damage spell capability) could offset this.
- Warrior, Thief, Warlock - the loss of healing spells will hurt this
char's solo ability, but they will have strong fighting ability, backed
up with movement spells to quickly return to town when injured.
=[ Ogre ]=
Due to the severe guild limitations of ogres, they are only useful if
played as neutral or evil, allowing them access to the barbarian guild,
otherwise their spell points go to waste through the high cost of magical
entry in the artisan's guild. Ogres are generally neutral, as this means
they can join with good or evil characters. Make sure that their CON is as
high as possible, as having the highest con giving them high HP is one of
the few things ogres have going for them. So make them neutral, high con,
and go kill something... :)
Ogres are great as a first character to collect tomes and potions for
your other characters, as they don't have a lot of potential to travel to
the lowest levels of the dungeon.
=[ Yeti ]=
Dextrous but ugly, Yeti are valuable because of their great underwater
breathing capability. They can join the magi's guild, but given their low
charisma they may not be able to cast some of the more powerful charm and
bind spells (unless aided by charisma increasing items). They are quite
effective warriors though, having a good STR and DEX, backed up with
sorceror capability.
Suggestions:
- Good/Evil Warrior, Sorceror, Explorer - powerful fighter with offensive
capability and movement spells.
- Evil Sorceror, Villain, Explorer - same as above, but villain may provide
a more rounded fighting ability.
- Or drop Explorer from either of the above combinations so leveling can be
faster in the other two guilds at the expense of movement spells.
=[ Saris ]=
They can only be neutral and only join six guilds, and are often found in
the same guilds as dwarves (except they can't be warriors). However, Saris
have the huge advantage over dwarves of having a brilliantly high dexterity
(max natural 28 Dex). Though they have less STR and CON, their tremendous
DEX is very popular since they usually get first strike in a battle.
Suggestions:
- Explorer, Thief, Cleric, Warlock - go the whole hog and use all four
guilds. Very slow to level, but pretty good.
- Explorer, Thief, Cleric - drop warlock and lose a few spells in order
to gain levels faster.
- Thief, Cleric, Warlock - will lack fighting ability comparatively to
those in the explorer's guild, but should level a little faster and will
have morkal death spells.
=[ Troll ]=
Trolls can have three alignments, but are almost always evil, due to their
allowed guilds. As mentioned trolls are only really useful as Evil Ninja/
Villain/Barbarians. Neutral thief is a waste, as is a Good Ninja. The
ninja's great fighting ability combined with the better thieving and
backstabbing ability of the barbarian, and villain for some spellcasting
capability make these trolls a powerful character.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
===== [ YOUR FIRST CHARACTER ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [1ST]
Attaining the maximum HP possible for a character vastly improves their
chances of survival, as they can take more damage than other characters. A
high Con is vital early on in a character's development if they want to
have a high HP.
Con is only effective in increasing HP before MxLv is reached. After
MxLv, Con only affects how quickly a character recovers from poison and
disease and their resurrection chances.
All chars should be a member of the artisan's guild from the very start.
The artisan's guild should have the highest guild lvl until lv30 unless
the character is a member of the warrior's guild. The warrior's guild gives
and average of 6 HP per level, the only guild better than the artisan's 5.
The warrior's guild stops gaining Con-influenced HP after lv26, so
Artisan should gain lv27-30 before any other guild.
If a character is part of the warlock's guild, then they should gain
level 31-38 first in the warlock's guild - due to it's MxLv of 38.
The artisan guild should never gain any level above 30 before any other
guild, as they will only receive 1 HP per level as opposed to 2 from any
other guild.
The artisan's guild should be one of the high level guilds of a char as
it provides the best A/D of any guild for a long time. A character stops
gaining A/D from the artisan's guild after level 197.
The easiest (and arguably the best) way to start off is by creating a ogre
or a giant able to join the Warrior's guild with maximum Constitution.
The stats should be: STR 14, INT & WIS 10, CON 16, CHA 4, DEX 12 (add Con
if any points are left over). This character will gain HP quickly and be
likely to survive.
As the helplesson says, running away is a characters best defense early on
in the game. Generally, gaining a level as soon as you have enough
experience to do so is wise until you at least have 80 or so HP. The most
dangerous enemies early on are floor slimes, which can spit acid for large
amounts of damage.
As you adventure you will find potions or tomes that increase your stats.
Since you wisely started with 10 INT & WIS, you can use tomes, and this
character should use any tomes of the correct alignment (re-aligning items
is expensive and generally not worth it unless you have a bit of money to
play with - I suggest you save them for legacy characters).
On deeper levels, large groups of monsters (slaves are a perfect example)
will block your escape, so be careful that you do not start venturing down
deep in the dungeon too early, because it is very likely that you will die.
While dying does not mean the end of your character, it can hinder a
character's early progress, chewing up vital gold, and there is always the
possibility that there will be complications - reducing statistics, aging,
often making you want to discard the character. Unless the situation is
extremely bad, it is probably best to continue with the same character,
as you will have already gained a few levels and bought items from the
store that a newly created character has not.
As you collect more tomes & potions, you will find many that are not of
your char's alignment. You may want to start a second character to give
these tomes to. This newly created character (who you will probably want
to be a spellcaster) is called a legacy character. Legacy characters are
characters that feed off the success of your previous characters, being
given items and gold to increase their initial abilities. There is nothing
wrong with this, and indeed many players create legacy characters when
playing Demise. If you are playing multiplayer, you should be able to get
someone to hold your tomes for you while you switch characters (make sure
you have created your legacy character before you dump your tomes on
someone!) If you are playing single-player, you can easily transfer the
tomes between your multiple characters.
You will probably want your second character to be a spellcaster. Elves
generally make the best spellcasters as they have the highest Int&Wis,
which gives them more spell points than any other race. A sorceror is
arguably the best spellcaster, as they have a wide range of offensive
spells at their disposal, and can cast resistance spells earlier and thus
for a cheaper cost than any other guild (however, other spellcasting guilds
are good too - pick the one that you like the sound of). If you wish to
join the spellcasting guild straight away (and it is not possible with
some), you will have a substantially weaker initial character than a
fighting character (the ogre, for example). When starting off this new
character, you must remember that they are not as strong as your first
character (which is the character you are used to playing with), and
will need to use starting off tactics again. This means you must again be
prepared to turn tail and run from those monsters on level 1, unlike you
have been doing with your first character. If you're playing single player,
you can set your first character to defend, and then travel around as a
group, getting your spellcaster to attack, while having them protected by
your more powerful character.
Also, remember to get this character as many HP as possible by following
the points below:
A character gains extra HP when they make a level in the guild in which
their level is highest. Until reaching MxLv in a guild, a character gains
HtRg of the guild + bonus hit points based on constitution. However, when a
character gains the level to take them to MxLv (i.e. a warrior gaining
level 26) they do not gain a constitution bonus. To maximise hit points,
give/buy your character enough constitution raising tomes/potions to give
them maximum constitution before gaining a level. The best HP route is
Warrior to 25, then Artisan to 29, then Warlock to 38. If the character is
unable to join Warrior, then level them to 29 in Artisan before switching
to Warlock. If the character is unable to join Warlock, then gain level 30
in Artisan. After reaching MxLv, NEVER lead levelling with artisan (if you
are going to continue with them), as they are the only guild that gives 1
HP/level after MxLv; all other guilds give 2 HP/level.
- [ misc character creation tips ] -
[ Tip 1 ] : Good and Evil characters don't mix, so you can't have a Good
Warrior and an Evil Ninja grouped in one party. However, most guilds are
flexible enough to accomodate more than one alignment, so you can still
pair a Warrior with a Ninja, e.g. a Neutral Warrior could team up with
either a Good Ninja or an Evil one.
The only exception are the Paladin and Villain guilds, these two are
fixed opposite to each other in alignment, so you may never have both in
a party at the same time. I don't have a recommendation here, some people
may want to join the Villains guild as it's useful in some racial combos.
[ Tip 2 ] : Int & Wis min 10! else can't read tomes = screwed.
No excuse for not doing this, unless you have enough stat potions (which
have no requirements unlike tomes) to make up the shortfall. If you can
spare the points, boost them both to 12; in your late 20s you will be
able to wear the Night Cloak (store buyable) that turns you invisible (as
a plus it also jacks your Dex up by 2).
[ Tip 3 ] : Start with Str 12, Dex 12
Three words: Dagger of Stealth. This store-only item will be vital for
early character development, when you're still skulking around the first
4 floors.
[ Tip 4] : If not Mag or Pal, disregard Cha.
Mostly true, Cha is kinda useless if not required for a guild. Having a
Magi character around may be useful for charming and bringing back those
bounties, but rather than spend your precious initial points in it, stock
up on stat boosters instead.
[ Tip 5 ] : Pal/Mag
The Paladin's guild is the only other one that uses the Cha stat, so you
may want to plan a character on joining both guilds.
[ Tip 6 ] : Always wear plate armor if able.
Huh. From the 'advice to newbies':
" 24. Upgrade your weapons, armor and items as soon as possible.
The common practice is to use the leather armors rather than the
plate or chain. The negative Dex cost of the chain and plate
usually outweighs the A/D benefits. "
...ok, avoid those -dex armors. I think the heavy use of stats (i.e. Dex
included) in a lot of game rolls makes it important not to handicap them.
[ Tip 7 ] : All chars need atk bonus more, e.g. between an atk++ item and
an atk+/def+ item, choose the former.
True, characters generally have higher defence. Also, in most fights you
DO get to go first, it may mean the difference between killing something
in one round, or allowing it to get that one, potentially fatal, attack
in. And in Demise, it's often all about that one fatal attack :P
[ Tip 8 ] : Early weapon progression: Steel Dagger, Warhammer, Steel Mace;
Thief Sword, Wicked Blade; Silver Cross, Staff of Alton.
Not strictly in that order, but these are the early good weapons you will
be able to find and wield.
[ Tip 9 ] : Resistances aren't cumulative! Only highest used.
Apparently if a character has, say, 50% resistance to Stoning, wearing an
item that grants 22% protection vs Stoning won't increase it. Keep those
low-percentage items though, all races have their own weaknesses. Humans
have no resistances, heh. I haven't reached the resistance spells yet, no
comments. They *should* be quite helpful though.
[ Tip 10 ] : Have a Thief with good eyesight and dexterity, and not more
than 2 guilds if possible. E.g. Saris Art/Thf, Dwarf War/Thf, Troll, Elf
Saris are made to be Thieves, as they have the highest natural Dex
rating, good eyesight, and are always Neutral. However, they also have
the highest ExFt (Experience Factor), a value that influences how much
experience you need to next lvl, and so will progress slow. You need to
be high in lvls to safely pull off those thieving skills, i.e. disarming
lootboxes most of the time. Early traps aren't so bad, but imagine failing
a Stoning or Teleportation trap... so don't let your thief lag in kills,
his skills are crucial for the party.
[ Tip 11 ] : sample parties
example1:
- dwarf war/thf; - dwarf war/expl
- yeti war/sorc; - troll art/nnj
example2:
- saris art/thf; - gnome art/magi (pal/magi if possible)
- giant war/expl; - human war/warl
You may read elsewhere that says not to bother maxing Con for legacy
characters (those you create having collected potions and tomes for them
to start out with high stats) - they reason that an extra 50HP on average
only means that in terms of advanced levels where gains are 2HP/lvl, 50HP
works out to a mere 25 levels - BUT 50HP is like 50% difference when
you're starting out. 50HP is nothing to sneeze at, while you're running
around floors 1-4, 50HP is like HALF of your max life. Therefore I say
yes, collect those Con potions and tomes. Con also helps reduce the time
you spend poisoned or diseased, and I've been burned by these too often.
On the bright side, in most games status effects are minor, forgettable
and therefore pointless afflictions. At least in Demise you have to pay
attention when it happens.
While running around with my brawler party on floors 2-4 collecting stat
mods, I did notice that having low Con hurts. After a while though I
realise that with a bit of care you can reach lv30 with around 100+ hp
for non-warriors, and it doesn't hurt too much having a low Con (lowest is
9, I think it was 10 but lost 1 during a failed resurrection), as long as
you be careful and don't get careless. Still, I'd rather have a high Con
value for my actual party later.
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===== [ PENALTY INFO ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [PEN]
When you are part of more than one guild, each guild applies an
experience penalty to the other guild(s) you are a member of based on the
abilities you get from the guilds.
The penalties largely come from A/D (attack/defence), but also from the
other guild abilities: Thieving, Backstabbing, Critical Hit, Multi Swing,
Fighting, Perception & Language. The penalty is based on how powerful the
abilities provided by a guild are relative to your total abilities.
Guilds like Ninja & Villain contribute skills in a wide variety of
areas, so tend to suffer less from penalties, but inflict worse penalties
on other guilds.
Spell power is not included as an ability that induces penalties, so
spellcasting guilds tend to give very small penalties to other guilds, but
suffer from high penalties from other guilds.
Penalties maximise at 1.5, which requires a character to get 150% extra
experience than normal to level.
Since penalties come largely from A/D, taking artisan beyond lvl 30 is
not recommended, because it provides very little in the way of character
skills, and gives any other guilds a high penalty. Also, artisan is the
only guild that gives 1 HP/level after MxLv; all other guilds give
2 HP/level.
More detail:
When a character gains levels in one guild, it increases the penalty on
other guilds. The increase in penalty is applied retroactively to the
experience the character needed to gain its currently level as well as to
the experience required to gain subsequent levels. e.g. (using made up
figures) 30 sorceror/28 ninja requires 7,000XP to get to level 31 in
sorceror. The character now levels ninja up to 60 increasing the penalty on
sorceror from 0.15 to 0.41. This penalty increase is applied to the XP
required for the previous 30 levels the sorceror has gained, and now the XP
required is 90,000.
This means that there is no avoiding penalties, as they will get you in
the end - but if you plan to level a guild just to get minimum spell costs,
then do that early on, then level other non-spellcasting guilds later on so
that you will not suffer from penalties.
There's also an idle penalty, which applies to guilds you join but
neglect while raising other guilds, then return to the guild you left
"idling" at lower levels - they get applied a quite large negative
modifier. There's a cap somewhere (x2.5?), but I've read about people
getting idles in the tens of millions. Huh. I suppose this is tied in to
the penalty discussed above; the more a guild contributes in terms of
skills and A/D and stuff, the larger the idle penalty grows for the
character's other guilds. Makes sense. Still, it's quite painful.
If I'm not mistaken the trick was to idle at low levels, so even with
a x2.5 mod, at level 1 that's going to be all but unnoticeable. Oh well,
this IS a dungeon crawler, repetition is a large feature of the genre
after all. Let's see how it goes with my own party.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- [ Race stat max building ] -
As noted above, each race starts with a fixed point total. By comparing
this total with the actual race maximums, we can see how many points each
race needs to reach the max for each stat. Also as noted, natural stats
can't be raised more than max+5, e.g. Ogre Con = 20+5 = 25. The figures in
the list are taken from the natural max list, so we will display the
modified maximums as well as the required points 'til max.
Race Str Int Wis Con Cha Dex Total ..Mod -Init =Req
Human 4/17 4/18 4/18 6/17 5/18 6/18 29/106 136 64 72
Yeti 7/19 4/18 4/19 3/15 2/14 4/20 24/105 135 62 73
Dwarf 4/19 3/18 6/19 4/19 2/16 4/18 23/109 139 63 76
Troll 8/20 4/18 2/18 5/18 2/16 7/20 28/110 140 64 76
Ogre 8/21 2/16 2/16 10/20 4/18 5/16 31/107 137 66 71
Gnome 3/17 6/19 6/19 3/18 8/23 6/18 32/114 144 64 80
Elf 2/14 7/21 7/20 2/15 4/18 4/19 26/107 137 63 74
Giant 10/24 3/17 3/17 8/18 2/15 4/18 30/109 139 66 73
Saris 4/17 4/18 3/18 6/17 4/17 10/23 31/110 140 66 74
Ouch. 70+ average number of stat boosters for any one character needed
to reach the limit (natural max + 5). We can't break it down for each stat
(e.g. how many +Cha does an Elf need to max?) because the Init figure is
distributed among all stats during creation, and this will differ from
character to character, depending on starting guild requirements as well
as individual player preferences.
However, we can draw a template for an example character and beginning
class chosen from popular starting strategies - for example, Saris almost
always begin their careers with 30 Artisan, so we can use that for the
Saris example. From each example we can then calculate the needed number of
stat-boosters (tomes & potions) from there.
Template 1: [G]Human-Warrior
Everyone knows this Ninja/magicuser route, and most start off in the
Warrior's guild for 26 levels of HP. So we have [64] starting points as a
human, and the Warrior's Guild requirements are:
Str-14/Int-6/Wis-6/Con-10/Cha-4/Dex-8, for a total of 48 points, leaving
16 to distribute. Now we want Int and Wis to be at least 10, to be able to
read those stat-boosting tomes. That's 2x(10-6)=8, leaving us with 16-8=8
points left. Supposing that we will ignore Cha as it is only useful for
Paladins and Magi guilds which our human character won't be taking, we dump
the remaining points also in Int & Wis since boosters for the other stats
are comparatively easier to find. So we end up with:
Str-14/Int-14/Wis-14/Con-10/Cha-4/Dex-8. The human maxs are
Str-22/Int-23/Wis-23/Con-22/Cha-23/Dex-23 (remember natural max + 5).
Thus we need these boosters: Str-8/Int-9/Wis-9/Con-12/Cha-19/Dex-15,
for a total of 72 - the exact same total as shown in the master max chart
above. Disregarding Cha, we need 53 boosters among 5 stats, about an
average of 10 per stat.
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===== [ BRAWLING PARTY ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [BRW]
Your original party will most likely NOT be the one you will eventually
settle down with; unless you're just a casual player, but not many of those
play stat-heavy mindless dungeon crawls like this ;>
Create a party of brawlers plus a thief (vital for loot collecting) to get
you those stat increasing potions and tomes in preparation for your actual
party. As a bonus, you can see how the upper floor monsters hurt you and
plan accordingly. Try not to use humans for your first party, the tendecy
to poison/disease around floor 4 is annoying, just when you're about to
find better stuff.
Another reason to get 4 people is simply that you can carry more loot in
one go. Also never forget, although they're fairly tough, they are NOT
immune to dying. Without further ado, here they are:
- - - The brawlers - - -
- Ogre[N] (War) (16,10,10,13,4,13)
Int & Wis evened out to 10, rest spread between Str, Con, Dex. Of course,
you could just pump Str, but Con and Dex helps too. This is the Hulk guy.
Warrior all the way.
- Giant[N] (Exp) (14,13,13,10,4,12)
An Explorer comes in handy when trying to figure out where you land after
a messy teleport, or step on one of those annoying rotators.
- Troll[N] (Thf) (11,12,10,10,5,16)
I know, I just said Saris make natural thieves, but Trolls are a close
second, plus they level slightly faster, and are resistant to both poison
and disease, best eyesight, and better breathing. Remember, these are the
short term temp guys; you want the best immediate benefits.
- Yeti[G] (War) (12,10,10,11,7,12)
Lowest of the big-guy brawl club, and lacking poison or disease
resistances (although the other resistances are fair), nevertheless has
best breathing, and levels faster than the Giant and Ogre.
The Ogre and Yeti may give you poisoning headaches, but poison doesn't
last too long and the high HP from being in the Warrior guild should
hopefully be sufficient. Breathing may not BE that important, but beware
the random teleporters that may send you underwater on floor 4, or that
fatal misstep over the edge of the shore on floor 3 -- download the maps,
they REALLY help.
Now, with this group, the first few dungeon floors should be a piece of
cake. Rotate your party leader as you see fit, but it'll most likely be the
Explorer since this is where she can do the most good in terms of
recovering from rotators etc. Rotate the rest as you see fit, but I noticed
the tendency for me to put the Thief up front as well; leveling faster =
better skill at opening chests, and that's always good. She was always a
couple levels ahead of the others. Stock up all the stat modding potions
and tomes you find, don't bother to change their alignment yet - combine
them into piles, since you pay the same price to realign a pile[x] compared
to a single unit.
Also, keep to floors 2-4! All the stat mods are on the first few floors,
there's no reason to venture further; plus you need steel weapons to deal
with some of the beasties on floor 5, and if I'm not mistaken you'll also
need stoning protection starting on that floor.
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===== [ SUGGESTED PARTIES ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [SUG]
In all the parties below, I have given a description of how the party
will perform, but I am sure that there are many other parties that are
good and successful.
All chars assumed to be a member of artisan's guild, and it is assumed
that all characters will progress using MaxHP rules (found in Your First
Character section above). The guilds that are character is in are listed
in decreasing importance, and hence comparable levels. It is also wise that
all characters become guild master in all the guilds that they are a member
of to acquire a guild crest. Guild crests are extremely powerful, and if
each character has a guild crest for every guild they are in, the strength
of the party will be increased considerably.
Some thoughts from Tiburon
First: In my experience, it is painfully slow to level a party. Yes, a
party of 4 can venture deeper and get XPs a little faster due to depth, but
not *that* much deeper. You're still bound by such factors as weapons
resistance and specific spell resistances (such as stoning obviously for 5,
then mental/electrical for 14-15). So, IMO, you do NOT want 3 guilds for
any character, with one possible exception (thief).
Also: 2 pure thieves is one too many. The second thief will rarely use
those skills. Granted, you can plan on splitting the mana costs on locked
chests among 2, but this can be managed in other ways that cost a lot less.
- My current party -
1) Good Elf - Paladin, Sorcerer
2) Good Human - Ninja, Magi
3) Neutral Dwarf - Warrior, Cleric
4) Neutral Saris - Thief, Explorer
The party has balance; all 4 characters are good in combat (even the Saris
is ok, because it has both backstabs and crits). All 4 have a use for their
mana. All 4 can actually be the lead, to balance out earning xp's; note
that for most things, it doesn't matter where the explorer perception is.
Does matter for spinners and teleports, though; recovering a bit faster
from being lost.
The combos are also designed to maximize effectiveness. Magi is a *poor*
combat spellcaster overall; thus, it's put with the best melee class, as I
want to use those swings. Paladin is not a bad fighting class, but
considerably weaker than warrior or ninja, so it gets my #1 blasting spell
guild, sorcerer. I'm also using an elf for the blaster mage because the
elf has more mana to use. A yeti could be a warrior/sorcerer, more
effective in melee, but losing quite a bit of mana, and if Lok's evidence
that Int/Wis does affect spell damage IS correct, effectiveness. [True]
Arguably, you could drop magi and go ninja/warlock. If you go this route,
then if you really want magi to handle those annoying Return With quests...
plan on taking magi to guildmaster level, then only running it when you get
one of em. Who gets magi? I'd put it on the first character you send out
into the dungeon, to be fetching tomes/potions for the others. Probably the
best choice is the ninja; he can most afford to lose a few HP's early on
because he'll have those warlock levels later.
- - -
The slot 1 spellcaster bug suggests that you might want to try a very
melee-heavy party too, with spellcasting oriented to the non-combat spells.
You need healing, movement, and resistance spells; charms are nice but not
absolutely necessary, so perhaps toss in magi as above...
Warrior, Cleric for healing
Thief, Explorer for movement and thieving
Ninja, Warlock for resistances
That covers everything but blasting, with a slot left over. This slot could
be filled in a couple ways... first, a troll as a pure ninja (fast, fast,
fast leveling cuz no penalties), or as a Ninja/Villain... some spare
healing, and some good combat spells when in the lead. A giant warrior/
explorer or warrior/barbarian would be a great cleaver character.
Yes, there are fights such as the bloodsuckers where this party would have
problems, but note that if the sorcerer isn't in the #1 position when you
run across those fights, he isn't gonna be that useful anyway.
- - -
- Kevin's Party -
1) Evil Troll Artisan/Ninja/Villain
Level Artisan to 30 for HP only. Then take Ninja to 131 for your 3rd
swing. Switch to Villain until 101. At Villain 101 you will get healing
costs down and decent costs on the Morkuls. Morkul Healing is AWESOME at
101 (5 SP). You also get the guild quests out of the way and a better
Backstab ability. Switch back to Ninja until you get the 4th swing, then
drop. Villain from here out will continue to lower spell costs and allow
you to use Chain Mail and Axes... some of which are very nice.
2) Neutral Dwarf Warrior/Cleric
Artisan and Warlock can be added for max HP, but if you start out with
max Con, it isn't really necessary. Take Warrior to 46 for A/D, fighting
and an extra swing. Switch to Cleric and level it until you can use the
Dagger of Wizardry (179). This will give you great healing and very good
blasting. Then go back to Warrior for good. As Warrior, you will
continually raise A/D and have use of great weapons and armor. Since most
of your mana will go towards healing, super high Int/Wis isn't as necessary
as if you were blasting.
3) Evil Yeti Warrior/Sorcerer/Magi
Level Warrior to 46 for the swing and A/D and HP. Then take Magi to 101.
Since Yetis learn fast, Magi will be at 101 before you know it. This will
help your party with quests/bounties and offer healing and movement. At
101, switch to Sorcerer and take it to the Dagger of Wizardry (167).
Switch over to Warrior again, but keep armor and weapons Int/Wis intensive
since you will do lots of blasting. Take Warrior to the second swing (162)
and drop it... stay with Sorcerer from there on to lower spell costs, raise
resistance levels, and language skill.
4) Neutral Saris Artisan/Explorer/Thief
Artisan to 30 for HP only. Warlock could be added, but isn't necessary.
Take Thief to 35 (Cutthroat quest) and leave it there. This will give you
good enough thieving to switch to Explorer. Run Explorer to 101 for
perception, movement, resistances, and fighting and A/D. At 101, Explorer
can be dropped until you find your A/D is not good enough. Stay with Thief
as much as possible and get it to a high level fast. Since this is a party
character, you will be hitting chests at levels lower than you can handle
alone... and your thieving will be less than what you want. Wear EVERYTHING
you can to increase Dex. Explorer/Thief is extremely powerful since those
TP traps are easily fixed with a quick displacement spell. However, you
will never get a natural extra swing.
The Troll will require lots of XP to level Ninja after getting the big
penalty from Villain... so put it up front. The Saris will need lots of XP
too, but will get lots from traps... keep it in the back. The Yeti and
Dwarf are interchangeable, but I like the Dwarf 2nd. Resistances will come
from the Yeti Sorcerer while movement will come from the Saris. If you are
running low on mana for the Saris, use the Troll to cast Magical Entry. I
keep the Saris highlighted since it has good eyesight and opens the chests.
- - -
- Kevin's 2nd Party -
1) Good Human Warrior 26/Ninja/Sorcerer
Warrior is taken only for HP and could be swapped for Artisan if you so
wish. Ninja is fairly self sufficient for a long time, so I take it to 131
for the 3 swings before starting Sorcerer. You will then have a 1.5 penalty
on Sorcerer, but the idle will be very low at level 1. Take Sorcerer to
resistance minimums (313 I believe). At this point you have a choice. You
can return to Ninja or switch to Warrior if you are happy with your swings.
Warrior will offer better fighting, but Ninja will give you 1-2 more swings
and thieving.
2) Neutral Dwarf Warrior/Cleric
This is the same as in my E/N party. Take Warrior to 46 for HP, A/D and an
extra swing, then take Cleric to 179 for spell levels and the Dagger of
Wizardry. At this point you will have great healing and very good
blasting... so take Warrior the distance.
3) Good Gnome Paladin/Magi
Start with Paladin since it is on par with Artisan for HP and go to 49 for
an extra swing. You will also get some healing and some Abolish spells.
Take Magi to at least 101 for guild quests... after that it is optional to
lower spell costs and levels. I have been happy with Magi at 101 so far
down to level 24. Switch back to Paladin and take it the distance.
4) Neutral Saris Artisan 30/Explorer/Thief
Artisan for HP again. Take Explorer and Thief to 35 fairly equally. At
this point switch to Explorer and go until you hit 101. At 101 you will
have good spell levels for movement and average resistance levels. Fighting
and A/D will come from Explorer, so only switch back to increase them as
needed. Thief is the focus though. Traps will offer you most of your XP,
and they get dangerous down deep, so get thief leveled high, fast.
This party offers the 4 best fighting guilds on each character (Warrior,
Ninja, Paladin, Explorer). You also get good blasting from Sorc and Cleric,
movement from Explorer and Magi, healing from Cleric and Paladin/Magi,
resistances from Sorc and Explorer, and thieving from Thief and Ninja. No
character is dependant on spells, but each are accomplished fighters. The
Gnome will be initially a blaster/charmer, but will later revert to a
default setting of fight to help conserve mana. Don't be afraid to use
companions, but never take more than 2 when grouped with the other 3
characters. This will allow you to accept joiners (which you'll get
several) and keep accidents to a minimum.
- - -
- Varzil's Party -
1) Evil Human Ninja, Warlock (My note: could also consider Sorceror?)
Has good fighting ability with many swings, and varied magical attack
forms. I would suggest adding sorceror, as this gives another character the
ability to cast cheap resistances. (Not to mention the good sorc spells &
morkal alchemy)
2) Neutral Saris Thief, Explorer
This character doesn't suffer as much in the fighting department, but if
you need movement spells to get home, make sure you don't use up all of the
saris' mana on opening magically locked chests. You will be able to level
thief fast and have fewer problems with chests.
3) Neutral Dwarf Warrior, Cleric
A fighter healer, this character has mana to heal, and can blast also
with damage & mind spells. Deep in the dungeon, powerful mind spells will
help you kill off many monsters.
4) Evil Yeti Warrior, Sorceror
This character will fight well, and has the best blasting ability, but
will probably need to spend mana on resistances. Returning to town after
casting resistances on other party members then going back to the dungeon
will maximise available mana for deep level blasting.
All characters have good fighting ability, with the front two having
thieving ability, and chances to sever. Could have a slight problem with
only one healer, but crystals/dusts of healing could help this. Has a wide
range of spells, but monsters requiring sorc spells to kill might be a
problem, though scrolls of spells could stop this problem.
- - -
- My Mush/Semi-Mush Parties -
1) Neutral Dwarf - Warrior, Cleric, Thief, Warlock/Explorer
Leading with warrior, this char can deal out loads of damage, and will
probably be the primary healer. Movement spells are very useful, and this
char will probably have the spare mana to cast them if you are careful not
to get too beat up. You will want to take warrior for the long haul, but
you might want to dump thief when thieving monsters are not a problem, so
concentrate leveling on cleric.
2) Good Human - Ninja, Sorceror, Magi
Heaps of strikes, & ability to heal through morkals, this character will
eat through the XP, and will probably have to be moved to the back of the
party frequently. Magi gives good movement, and it would probably be better
letting the Human take this guild higher than the elf. Magi does not need
the same amount of attention as ninja & sorceror, as long as you can charm
creatures, it is at an okay level.
3) Neutral Saris - Thief, Explorer, Cleric
The prime thief, the saris has a problem with extra swings (it gets none
from its guilds), however it does get a reasonable amount of XP from
thieving. It is possible to run it in the second position permanently, and
this will prevent the human from chewing up the enemies before the saris
gets to attack. After getting cleric up to a considerable level, you might
want to dump it forever, as a Saris needs a lot of XP anyway, and you will
want to concentrate on leveling thief.
4) Good Elf - Sorceror, Paladin, Magi
Level sorc like crazy, get paladin for decent fighting, and magi for
movement & charming. It will be able to blast enemies away, and can
potentially hold its own in battle, but it will probably need some help in
the strength department to do so. Magi isn't as important, and could be
dropped completely if desired.
This party is good in that all characters are well rounded, and have some
fighting and spell casting ability. Two thieves, as well as the thieving
ability of the ninja results in little problem with chests, and two clerics
results in good healing ability. It is possible to adventure in pairs
(always taking at least 1 neutral) to stay on higher dungeon levels to
level quicker.
- - -
1) Good/Evil Human - Warrior, Ninja, Sorceror (if evil: Warrior, Barbarian,
Sorceror is possibly better)
There are two options if good. The ideal would be to level ninja to lv60
or 131 for 2 or 3 extra swings respectively (I would choose 131), then run
warrior & sorceror up. The other is to level warrior to get a high fighting
ability, then drop it forever, which probably is not as good. If evil,
running barbarian up to get minimum entry cost then dropping it could be
good, but further leveling would prevent item theft from the character.
2) Good/Evil Human - Ninja, Sorceror, Warlock
This character will level fast in ninja, with sorceror probably a
distant second, with warlock taken mainly for getting cheap movement
spells. This character will probably have to cast movement spells.
3) Good/Evil Human - Sorceror, Magi, Ninja
Leading with sorceror, this character can blast the enemies, charm them,
or when low on mana carve them up. You need a blaster in every party, and
the advantage of this blaster is that they are also great in combat.
4) Neutral Saris - Thief, Cleric, Explorer
Level thief like mad, you will need good thieving, and magical entry as
cheap as you can get as early as you can get. Cleric is desired for healing
/resurrection in the dungeon, but if the humans are fine with health
because of good use of morkals, then it might be wise to level explorer
more to enhance fighting ability.
This party is VERY powerful, containing three powerful warriors with many
strikes & spell casting ability. Its main problem stems from the fact that
only one character is neutral, and that the humans have no resistances.
This means that the Saris is the only specialist healer and thief, but the
healing spells of the magi, and moderate thieving ability of the ninja
should offset this. Having 3 sorcerors able to cast morkal spells to regain
HP, all with good A/D and fighting ability results in this party being very
powerful. The saris will have difficulty gaining XP, so running it at the
front occasionally is a good idea (possibly run it at second permanently?)
- - -
1) Neutral Dwarf - Warrior, Thief, Cleric
This dwarf can sever often, but don't level warrior & thief too much at
the expense of cleric. It could be wise to level warrior & thief up to
give cleric a 1.5x penalty so you don't have to worry about idle penalties
anymore. But, remember when you do this, you will have to get a LOT of XP
to get that next cleric level.
2) Good Human - Ninja, Sorceror, Magi
This character will probably be the resistance caster, so leveling sorc
up early to get cheap resistances is a good idea, but make sure you keep
leveling it so that the resistance percentages keep going up. Magi is not
needed for movement, but for return monster quests.
3) Neutral Giant - Warrior, Barbarian, Explorer
This character will be able to use their mana for opening chests and
movement, keeping to dwarf free to heal, and the human free to charm/cast
resistances/heal through morkals. Putting this character in the lead will
help with rotaters.
4) Good Elf - Paladin, Sorceror (possibly +Warlock for more flexibility)
Should level reasonably fast, having only two guilds, and getting good
fighting ability will make it easier on this character to get XP. Since the
fighting ability is strong all-round, sorceror can afford to drag behind a
little.
Every character has good fighting ability, with only the elf not having the
ability to sever, and everyone getting extra swings. Healing can come from
cleric, magi & paladin, chests can be opened by the giant to leave spell
points for healing for the dwarf, and movement can also come from the
giant. Thieving monsters should not be a problem, with only the elf lacking
in thieving ability.
- - -
1) Neutral Giant - Warrior, Barbarian, Explorer
The high strength of a giant and the ability to critical hit & backstab
will let this character dish out damage left, right & centre. Explorer will
be needed for movement spells, but after these are minimised, it can be
dumped. Having this character in the lead will also result in less problems
with rotators.
2) Good/Evil Human - Ninja, Sorceror, Magi
Like the human in the previous party, this character will want to cast
the resistances, even though the yeti has fighting ability to get XP, they
do have a little less mana than an elf.
3) Neutral Dwarf - Thief, Warrior, Cleric
You can probably afford to leave cleric dragging a little behind due to
the massive fighting ability of this party. The ninja & human can get
health back through morkals, so only his character should only have to
worry about healing the giant & himself.
4) Good/Evil Yeti - Warrior, Sorc
This character is more powerful in the fighting deparment than the elf
in the previous party, having a higher Str & Con, and being a warrior will
allow this character to deal out more damage and resist it more because of
its higher fighting ability. Magi could be added if desired, but is
probably not needed.
The warrior party - everyone has great fighting ability. The same as above,
except the elf is replaced with yeti for superior fighting ability. This
party will be able to chew up enemies with multiple strikes for lots of
damage. Only the giant does not have a decent range of offensive spells.
Characters can survive on their own, though thieves deep in the dungeon
would have a field day stealing from the yeti.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[ My own party template ]
From the suggested party options above, I picked this one. It seems to
reflect what I was aiming for anyway, with my earlier and not so good
understanding of the game.
1) Good Human Warrior 26/Ninja/Sorcerer/
Warrior is taken only for HP and could be swapped for Artisan if you so
wish. Ninja is fairly self sufficient for a long time, so I take it to 131
for the 3 swings before starting Sorcerer. You will then have a 1.5 penalty
on Sorcerer, but the idle will be very low at level 1. Take Sorcerer to
resistance minimums (313 I believe). At this point you have a choice. You
can return to Ninja or switch to Warrior if you are happy with your swings.
Warrior will offer better fighting, but Ninja will give you 1-2 more swings
and thieving.
[ I've read that tacking on Warlock for movement spells may also be a
viable idea. ]
2) Neutral Dwarf Warrior/Cleric
Artisan and Warlock can be added for max HP, but if you start out with
max Con, it isn't really necessary. Take Warrior to 46 for HP, A/D and an
extra swing, then take Cleric to 179 for spell levels and the Dagger of
Wizardry. At this point you will have great healing and very good
blasting... so take Warrior the distance.
[ Well, probably will have far less than max Con at start, I suppose I will
have to rebuild anyway. At least this char is pretty clear-cut. ]
3) Good Gnome Paladin/Magi
Start with Paladin since it is on par with Artisan for HP and go to 49
(50?) for an extra swing. You will also get some healing and some Abolish
spells. Take Magi to at least 101 for guild quests... after that it is
optional to lower spell costs and levels. I have been happy with Magi at
101 so far down to level 24. Switch back to Paladin.
[ Now this guy isn't a start choice - you won't have enough stats to make
Paladin at creation. Will have to start saving up on those [G] stat
potions & tomes. On the plus side, not having to deal with Artisan will
mean less baggage, plus the others will have to get Artisan out of the
way anyway (like the Saris thief, absolutely no choice there).
4) Neutral Saris Artisan 30/Explorer/Thief
Artisan for HP again. Take Explorer and Thief to 35 fairly equally. At
this point switch to Explorer and go until you hit 101. At 101 you will
have good spell levels for movement and average resistance levels. Fighting
and A/D will come from Explorer, so only switch back to increase them as
needed. Thief is the focus though. Traps will offer you most of your XP,
and they get dangerous down deep, so get thief leveled high, fast.
[ No avoiding the Artisan on this guy, I remember my pure thief having very
little HP and was always the one most in need of healing. ]
This party offers the 4 best fighting guilds on each character (Warrior,
Ninja, Paladin, Explorer). You also get good blasting from Sorc and Cleric,
movement from Explorer and Magi, healing from Cleric and Paladin/Magi,
resistances from Sorc and Explorer, and thieving from Thief and Ninja. No
character is dependant on spells, but each are accomplished fighters. The
Gnome will be initially a blaster/charmer, but will later revert to a
default setting of fight to help conserve mana. Don't be afraid to use
companions, but never take more than 2 when grouped with the other 3
characters. This will allow you to accept joiners (which you'll get
several) and keep accidents to a minimum.
[ Okay, you start with [G]Human-Warrior, [N]Dwarf-Cleric, and [N]Saris-
Artisan. The [G]Gnome-Paladin isn't possible as starting, so the initial
party will most likely need a full-time thief to open those locks, one
who only cares about short-term strengths. Well, Dex-wise again it looks
like the Saris wins, although for some reason I thought of a Dwarf. So
the other guy is a [N]Saris-Thief. Two Saris, a Human, and a Dwarf. Not
too strong an initial party - then again, later on a Gnome replaces the
temp Saris, doesn't look like the party is big on size.
The initial stats for the others look pretty dismal too - not enough
points to spend. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm better off creating a
brawling party who only exist to farm potions... looks like it.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Update: I'm not too sure about the Paladin now. Gnomes aren't very well
liked and the Paladin is weaker than the Warrior and only gets a bunch of
itty healing spells. Sure having high Cha for Magi would be nice, but I'm
beginning to wonder.
Then again, I cross-checked stat maxs, and the Elf isn't THAT far ahead
in Int & Wis: 2 Int and 1 Wis, compared to 5 extra Cha the Gnome gets.
Resistance-wise the elf has a huge 80% magi(c?) resistance whereas the
Gnome has a smattering of the others (including 25% draining). I thought
of doing a brawler, but the leet races seem to be unable to join the most
useful guilds, and the elf is way weaker (Str&Con) compared to the Gnome.
I guess [G]Gnome-Paladin/Magi it is, then. I can tack on Sorc for mushpot
play, but Gnomes can't do Warlock - apparently limited to Dwarves, Elves,
and Saris (of any alignment). Well, I got two of those, so I guess it's
alright.
In any case, I figure I ought to grab as many stat improvers (tomes and
potions) for my real party - you find them fairly easily (at least 2 or 3
per run even on floor 2 without being able to open the magically locked
chests). I think I'm even going to squander some Int and Wis raisers for
my temp thief since I'll need to collect like 50 of everything (10
enhancers per stat per character? with spares) so wasting a handful won't
be that bad since it'll allow me to open up the magically locked chests
- if I'm not mistaken the loot may be slightly better in them. Plus having
the temp party spend that much more time down there means more mapping,
and I suppose they'll be strong enough to breeze through and collect more
loot especially in floors 3 and 4, which I remember were quite bad. I
don't die anywhere as much as I used to remember, that's a good sign btw
- looks like I was a bit impatient last time. Slow and steady pays off in
Demise, build yourself up and reserve your strength for quantity in kills
not quality. ]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
===== [ MISC TIPS ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [MSC]
While a large amount of information can be discovered by reading the
helplesson, some things are simply not in there - because Artifact
Entertainment didn't just want to give away this kind of valuable info.
Some of this information may or may not be detailed in the helplesson, it
is just what I consider to be info that Demise players should be aware of.
- Strength affects the amount of damage a character does in physical
combat. (So Giants = best fighters)
- Dexterity greatly helps when disarming traps. Two thieves of the same
skill will have different chances of disarming a trap if their dex are
different.(So Saris = best thieves)
- Thieving ability not only determines a character's ability to disarm
traps in boxes & chests, but also the ability to prevent monsters from
stealing gold & items. So you might want to give those new unknown items
that look really good to the party's best thief.
- Intelligence & Wisdom affect the power of your spells. The higher these
stats the more damage you will do with offensive spells, and healing
spells will also be more effective. (So Elves= best spellcasters)
- For every point of intelligence or wisdom a character has, 5 spell points
will be added to the character's spell point total.
- Charisma is required for charm spells, and a higher charisma makes
monsters in the dungeon more likely to want to join you. Higher charisma
seems to make it easier to charm a monster. (So Gnomes = best Magi)
- When companions damage or kill a monster, the character who 'owns' the
companion receives 25-30% of the experience they would normally receive.
- High constitution gives you bonus HP per lvlup before reaching MxLv, and
also allows you to recover from poison, disease & paralysis more quickly.
- Spell level is half your guild level, rounded up. Spell level is taken
from the highest guild that can cast the spell being cast, and the lowest
mana cost(if a spell can be learnt from multiple guilds) will always be
used regardless of the active guild at the time the spell is cast.
- Uncursed items with charges can be 'recharged' provided that the object
does not disappear after all its charges have been used. i.e. it is not
possible to recharge potions, tomes, etc - this only works for weapons or
other objects with spell charges. Sell the object to the store and buy it
again, and it will now have a full complement of charges.
- Sashes are cursed because the cast spells that are very powerful compared
to other items on the level(s) where you can find a particular sash. The
fact that they are a cursed item means that the store will not buy them,
and thus they cannot be 'recharged'. The sash will increase your A/D by
the listed amount and can cast the spell that it lists also (as with all
other items, make sure it is correctly aligned to your character).
- Any item ALWAYS sells for a greater amount of money when fully identified
than at any previous level of identification, EXCEPT if the item is
cursed. More money will be made from fully identifying items before
selling them rather than selling them at a low level of identification.
- However, less money is made by identifying companions before selling
them. So only identify companions to find out all information about them.
- Minimise mana costs for resistances (and any other spells you want to
cast) by having one character casting the spells on everyone else, then
go to the town and replenish spell points before returning to the
dungeon to cast any required spells on themself.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You can forfeit a random quest only when you are pinned in that guild
with a penalty of the loss of 2 levels in that guild and all the experience
gained for those 2 levels - painful, but better than forever stuck.
[ If I'm not mistaken you don't get random quests past level 101? So this
really shouldn't be that bad. ]
At dungeon level 4: You will need Acid and Poison resistance starting now.
Lots of monster groups to gain experience. You should also start finding
Crystals of Mysticism (Greenies) at this level. Each of your characters
should carry a couple. Then when you use a Greenie to cast Open Mystic
Portal you will be teleported to the spot where you cast the Establish
Mystic Portal spell (get to town very fast!).
At dungeon Level 5: You will need Stone and Magic resistance starting
here. You will also need to use steel weapons. You may start finding
Potions of Youth at this level.
At dungeon Level 13: You will need draining resistance starting here.
At dungeon Level 15: You will need Mind/Mental resistance starting here.
There are also extinguish squares in the dungeon - walking onto one will
remove ALL effects, including poison and disease! There are 3 extinguish
squares on level 3 - map them, find quick routes to them, and use them.
Fountains and Orbs:
Occasionally you'll come across a fountain or an orb. They can come in
really handy, because fountains replenish your HP, while the orb
replenishes mana. Simply park your party nearby (face the fountain/orb) and
wait while you slowly heal. They don't heal fast enough to counteract
poison or disease (though I notice they stop your health from dropping),
but are good sources for quickies. Especially early on, when you don't have
access to healing spells/items and the town fountain may be expensive.
There is a hidden room near the middle of floor 1 which has both a fountain
and an orb. I like to think of this as a "debriefing room" to get back to
before actually exiting the dungeon. Careful though, it contains a slime
spawn and they love ambush-spitting you (20dmg+!) just as you enter through
the secret door, the little bastards. They actually killed one of my low-
level wounded characters.
- [ Attack/Defense Information ] -
Attack/Defense (Att/Def or A/D for short) represents how likely you are
to hit or be hit in combat. If you have a very high A/D, then many smaller
monsters will simply be unable to hit you. The situation is the same for
you, however, so if you are trying to attack a monster with a very high
defense, then you may not be able to hit them unless your attack is
comparably high.
A/D is divided up into Stats A/D, Item A/D and Guild A/D. Item A/D will
increase as you obtain and use more powerful items, better quality weapons
having higher A/D, and better armour will give better A/D ratings also.
Stats A/D is dependent on your basic character stats. A 1 point increase in
Str&Dex will result in a 2/2 gain in A/D, and a 1 point WIS&INT increase
will result in a 1/1 increase in A/D. Note that this includes modified
stats due to items that increase/decrease your statistics. E.g. Bronze
plate has an A/D rating of 6/15, but has a -2 Dex adjustment. This means
that when you equip it, you A/D only increases by 2/11!
Guild A/D comes from your level in the guilds of which you are a member.
Your guild A/D will always come from the guild which has the highest A/D at
any one time. I do not know whether Att and Def are looked at separately
when the game calculates which A/D is the highest (i.e. Att may come from
a different guild to Def) or whether the totals of Att and Def are
calculated and the figures which have the highest total are used.
It appears that all guilds except the spellcasting guilds surpass the A/D
given by Artisan, but they take longer to get there.
At level 300:
Guild A/D
Artisan 175/175
Warrior 200/218
Paladin 177/204
Villain 192/215
Ninja 196/196
Explorer 166/201
Thief 141/171
Barbarian 141/170
Healer 94/150
Sorceror 76/147
Magi 77/144
Warlock 68/145
Here's a more detailed table on A/D progression for Artisan&Warrior Guilds.
Level Artisan Warrior
1 10/10 10/10
50 73/73 49/53
100 109/109 89/96
150 148/148 122/132
200 175/175 151/164
300 175/175 200/218
400 175/175 240/261
449 175/175 260/283
Some info on other max A/D values, though these may be slightly incorrect.
Level Guild A/D
420 Paladin 221/255
457 Ninja 255/255
428 Explorer 208/252
395 Thief 158/204
515 Barbarian 179/203
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- [ T Room Hints - By Blue Knight ] -
The T-Room is a very special addition to the dungeon added with the 3.1
patch. It was added by Regis and its existance was kept secret. Those
players who started finding it talked with Regis and all agreed to keep its
entrance location secret. Of course the fact of its existance got out and
there have been several discussions about the T-Room on the Demise forums
- however, all who have found it have kept the secret of the entrance to
themselves. This was done by common agreement to preserve the adventure of
the search and the excitement of the discovery for each player. PLEASE
honor this agreement if you have found the entrance.
A number of hints have been included in the discussions. They do help
narrow the search area (to only half the dungeon levels!) but do not
provide a direct path to the level, nor the entrance. Some of the hints may
become understandable only AFTER you find the entrance. I personally spent
about a week casually checking for the entrance. When I got determined
enough, I spent 2 days in a thorough seach and found it. Note: I only play
an hour or two each day.
Since these hints are available to all in the forums, Shadow Beast agreed
to post them in their condensed form if I would put them together.
So.... here they are:
1. "Have a cup of tea".
2. The entrance shows up as a wall using detect rock/map area.
3. The entrance is located in a slightly "special" area of the dungeon.
4. The entrance can be found before level 16.
5. "I found it completely by luck alone. I wasn't looking for it. I'll
admit I wondered why the area the entrance was located in was how it
was."
6. "After you have found it, the entrance does not disappear. So you should
be able to find it with several characters."
7. "Getting back isn't as bad as you think. Getting there the first time is
the hardest part. I use it a lot more than I thought I would, but I am
still cruising level 17-18 (no char above 100 in any guild)."
8. The T-Room isn't so obvious to find just by looking at the maps.
9. "it shore were nice to have Tea with a whole whack of peaceful Wisps."
10. "I found it because I was remapping and searching for secret doors. The
normal way to find doors is to bang walls."
11. "It is indeed possible to find the entrance to the tea room with
perception. That's the way I did it, and I had no idea it was there
either. Of course my party has two explorers, and I had gotten both of
them to level 90 PRE-patch. I just "noticed" the entrance while
remapping."
What's in the T-Room?
Heh, heh. You'll find out. But it's not named the T-room for nothing! Also,
it helps address a certain problem with spell caster guilds.
Here's a few comments:
"The name of the Tea room is obvious if you have been there. Walk around
and read everything."
"I found a new Grimoire this weekend, and now use the Tea Room lots more.
I set my Explorer's Mystic Portal to the Tea Room and go straight there
before adventuring. I then use the Sorcerer to cast resistances on
everyone. The Explorer casts Flight, and I'm ready for a long trip. I
then use a greenie from one of my other characters to get to a good
starting point... right now on level 26."
"While there I cast: Magical Flight, Full resistances, See invisible, mass
sight veil, shining lights." "I also cast amphibious breathing and
protection"
Hope you find it eventually and by yourself. It truely will spoil the fun
if you have someone tell you where it is. I was very frustrated just before
finding it, but kept myself from asking for more hints. I'm now very glad
I found it on my own!
GOOD LUCK!
- Blue Knight
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
===== [ OLD NOTES ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [OLD]
These are fragments of my own previous notes, mostly just pushing
numbers around and speculation. Note that information in this section is
invalidated by contradiction elsewhere - if you read something that sounds
wrong in here, it probably is.
I'm only leaving it in because the figures are useful as curiosities,
and reading the notes may show you how the wrong approach can lead to
confusion, so learn from my past mistakes.
old notes: - - - - - alignment: [G]=good, [N]=neutral, [E]=evil
+Elf GNE [G]Art, Pal, Exp, Mag, *Sor, *Wlk
>> 10,18,18,12,8,14
+Mag >> 10,18,18,12,12,14
+Pal >> 14,18,18,12,16,14
+Giant N [N]*War, *Exp, *Bar
>> 14,13,13,10,4,15
+Gnome GNE [G]Art, *Pal, Exp, *Mag, Sor
Pal/Mag: 14 12 13 8 16 13
Dwarf N [N]War, Exp, Thf, Bar, Wlk, Cle
Ogre GNE [N]War, Bar; not much use cept for clobberin'
Yeti GE [G]War, Exp, Mag, Sor
+Saris N [N]Exp, *Thf, Mag, Wlk, *Cle
Thf/Exp: 12 13 13 10 5 16
Troll GNE [E]Nnj, Vil, Bar
[G]Nnj: 14 10 8 8 6 16
[ hotkeys ]
A = add a nearby char to party
P = pickup a body
W = swap inventory items (you'll be asked to input: slot x, slot y)
Q = exit to main menu
(enter), /c = char info
(enter), /g = char's guild quest info
...these are all in the helpfile included when you install the game.
= [ ACTUAL AVAILABLE GUILDS UPON CREATION + MASTER RACE MIX LIST ] =
The actual numbers seem to fluctuate, but for a given guild they will
total the same. E.g. A dwarf warrior is listed as 14 Str, 6 Int, 6 Wis,
10 Con, 4 Cha, 8 Dex with 15 spare points, for a total of 63 points. You
may get 12,6,6,8,6,12,+13 instead, but note that the total stat points is
still 63. Each race has it's own fixed total, for example giants have a
total of 66:
Dwarf 63; Elf 63; Giant 66; Gnome 64; Ogre 66; Saris 66; Troll 64;
Yeti 62; Human 64
Listed in alphabetical and good-neutral-evil order. Stats after the
guild name refer to the starting stats in the Demise order of Str, Int,
Wis, Con, Cha, and Dex, with extra points at the end, e.g. + 6.
+ Dwarf[N] War, Exp, Thf, Bar, Wlk, Cle -- (War)/Cle/Wlk
Dwarf[N] - War (14, 6, 6,10, 4, 8,+15)
Thf ( 9,12, 8, 5, 5,16,+ 8)
Bar (12, 8, 8,10, 4,15,+ 6)
Start War (14,11,11,10,4,13)
Cle reqs: 8 14 14 10 8 14
To add Cle, 0,+3,+3,0,+4,+1 = Int[N]x3, Wis[N]x3, Cha[N]x4, Dex[N]x1
Wlk reqs: 10 18 18 12 8 14
To add Wlk, 0,+7,+7,+2,+4,+1 = Int[N]x7, Wis[N]x7, Con[N]x2, Cha[N]x4,
Dex[N]x1
+ Elf[G] Pal, Exp, Mag, Sor, Wlk
Elf[G] - Sor ( 7,14,13,12, 5,10,+ 2)
+ Elf[N] Exp, Thf, Mag, Wlk, Cle
Elf[N] - Thf ( 9,12, 8, 5, 5,16,+ 8)
+ Elf[E] Exp, Mag, Sor, Wlk
Elf[E] - Sor same as [G]
+ Giant[N] War, Exp, Bar -- War/Exp
Giant[N] - War (14, 6, 6,10, 4, 8,+18)
Exp (12,13,13,10, 4,12,+ 2)
Bar (12, 8, 8,10, 4,15,+ 9)
+ Gnome[G] Pal, Exp, Mag, Sor -- Pal/(Mag)
Gnome[G] - Mag ( 6,12,13, 8,12,13,+ 0) +Pal: +8,0,0,0,+4,0 = Str[G]x8,
Cha[G]x4
Sor ( 7,14,13,12, 7,10,+ 1)
Pal reqs: 14 9 9 8 16 12
Sor reqs: 7 14 13 12 5 10
To add Sor,+1,+2,0,+4,0,0 = Str[G]x1, Int[G]x2, Con[G]x4
+ Gnome[N] Exp, Thf, Bar, Mag, Cle
Gnome[N] - Thf ( 9,12, 8, 5, 7,16,+ 7)
Bar (12, 8, 8,10, 7,15,+ 4)
Mag same as [G]
+ Gnome[E] Vil, Exp, Bar, Mag, Sor
Gnome[E] - Bar same as [N]
Mag same as [G] & [N]
Sor same as [G]
+ Ogre[G] War
Ogre[G] - War (14, 6, 6,10, 4, 8,+18)
+ Ogre[N] War, Bar
Ogre[N] - War same as [G]
Bar (12, 8, 8,10, 4,15,+ 9)
+ Ogre[E] War, Bar
Ogre[E] - War same as [G] and [N]
Bar same as [N]
+ Saris[N] Exp, Thf, Mag, Wlk, Cle -- (Thf)/Wlk/Cle
Saris[N] - Exp (12,13,13,10, 4,12,+ 2)
Mag ( 6,12,13, 8,12,13,+ 2)
Thf ( 9,12, 8, 6, 5,16,+10) +Wlk: +1,+6,+10,+6,+3,0 ... 10 points
start Thf (10,12,12,11,5,16)
Wlk reqs: 10 18 18 12 8 14
To add Wlk, 0,+6,+6,+1,+3,0 = Int[N]x6, Wis[N]x6, Con[N]x1, Cha[N]x3
Cle reqs: 8 14 14 10 8 14
To add Cle, 0,+2,+2, 0,+3,0 = Int[N]x2, Wis[N]x2, Cha[N]x3
Mag reqs: 6 12 13 8 12 13, Cha[N]x7
+ Troll[G] Nnj
Troll[G] - Nnj (14,10, 8, 8, 6,16,+ 2)
+ Troll[N] Thf, Bar
Troll[N] - Thf ( 9,12, 8, 5, 5,16,+ 9)
Bar (12, 8, 8,10, 4,15,+ 7)
+ Troll[E] Nnj, Vil, Bar
Troll[E] - Nnj same as [G]
Vil (14,11, 8,12, 4,14,+ 1)
Bar same as [N]
+ Yeti[G] War, Exp, Mag, Sor -- (War)/Sor
Yeti[G] - Sor ( 7,14,13,12, 5,10,+ 1)
War (12, 9, 9, 8, 7, 9,+ 8)
start War (12,11,11,11,7,10)
Sor reqs: 7 14 13 12 5 10
To add Sor, 0,+3,+2,+1,0,0 = Int[G]x3, Wis[G]x2, Con[G]x1
+ Yeti[E] War, Vil, Exp, Bar, Mag, Sor
Yeti[E] - War same as [G]
Bar (12, 8, 8,10, 4,15,+ 5)
Sor ( 7,14,13,12, 5,10,+ 1)
Stat modding potions/tomes I have stocked (G/N/E):
Str-9(6/3/2) Int-4(//4) Wis-1(/1/) Con-9(3/3/3) Cha-6(6//) Dex-4(2/1/1)
Note that Int, Wis, and Cha mods seem uncommon.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
===== [ BUGS ] ===== . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [ERR]
Taken from forums. It's an old game, with unfortunately old and still
unresolved issues. This genre is pretty small, it needs all the help it can
get, these bugs definitely do nothing to help.
The articles below are mostly sourced from forum posts; some don't even
exist anymore, I got help from Google's caches for some of them.
- [1] Spellcaster Slot 1 bug - - -
In SP, if your spellcaster is not in the first slot, his spells will affect
radically fewer targets than they should. Very often: they affect nothing.
You FREQUENTLY get "no monsters in range" when that's total hooey.
If your caster is in slot 1, the spells he casts will always hit the
expected number of targets. So, if you cast a spell that can hit up to 4
groups of 7, it will hit all 4 groups, and kill up to 7 monsters.
If you have your caster in any other slot, there is a problem. If your char
in slot 1 kills all the monsters in group 1, your caster will get an 'out
of range' message, and won't hit ANY monsters with their spell, even though
there are still 3 groups of 7+ monsters attacking you.
I also think that if the first group starts with a lot of monsters, and is
then reduced to 2 by your first character, your spell will hit, but will
only kill up to 2 monsters per group, instead of all 7.
Summary:
You simply don't hit the monsters you should with the spells you cast.
Ah, I thought there was something up with my sorceror. So your forced to
put the weakest out front.
This is the worst bug in Demise (the No-Repop bug would be the second
worst). It's very annoying that this game has been patched 6-7 times and
the two nastiest bugs (bugs that have been reported since beta testing
prior to the first release) are still with us.
- [2] The no-repop bug - - -
(can't find reliable info on this, but the name and anecdotal evidence
suggests that some monsters never respawn - making quests where you need
to find that type again undoable)
- [3] Map bug - - -
Can't find reliable info on this, but from forum posts and my own
experiences it seems the automap will suddenly occasionally disappear,
which kind of sucks since it's very important to know where you've been
and to remember the landmarks which help you on your way. However, this
time around I'm taking the previous precaution of always exiting the game
after resurfacing and finishing my guild/shopping business. Maybe it's the
fact that I'm running it under WinXP now instead of Win98SE, but I haven't
seen any anomalies... so far. True, I have applied the patches according
to the directions, which as far as I remember I didn't do last time. About
the bloating, I'll just keep an eye on the data folder - it appears to be
around 83+MB total (including the backup folder). I pray that the bloat
bug doesn't appear - I can't seem to find the link to the character fix
utility on the forums.
Update: The size total seems to be messed up a bit. Further digging shows
that a subfolder, DemiseSystemDemiseResource, contains 4 .DER files
that are 59.1Mb in size and are dated January 2000. I assume these are
game resources and NOT part of the actual saves. For those, I think they
are in DemiseSystemDemiseBackup and DemiseSystemDemiseAutobackup
which are both only 7.5Mb in size and contain files that indicate current
stuff (like items, map, etc) and have a timestamp corresponding to my
playing dates.
So, I think those are the only ones you need to worry about. At 7.5Mb in
size they're still pretty small, hopefully there aren't any problems.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Last minute notes: The numbers in the tables are mostly lifted wholesale,
lock, stock 'n barrel from the Demise help manual. *shrug* I find them
easier to digest as plain text. The Master Race Mix List I created to list
down the nonhuman guild possibilities, as well as WHICH guilds are actually
available to you DURING character creation -- so you don't look at the
manual, plan to start a Gnome Paladin, and then realise you can't
actually START as a Paladin since the little Gnomish twats
don't start with enough stats ;/ Use the list to plan how many of each stat
potions and tomes you will need for your characters, after you have built a
brawling party to go down the upper floors hunting for those.
During the 2006 update I copied a whole bunch of info from several
excellent Demise fan pages, some of which seem to appear to have been last
updated 5 years ago... I am not claiming the info as originally by me,
think of this document as an archive of sorts. MUCH better than chasing
down outdated Google links, no?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
To do: site links and a bunch of other odds and ends. There really isn't
that much out there, a lot of it is lost among old forum posts and
abandoned websites. There isn't that much activity on the long-time fan
sites either, their forums are mostly just vets reminiscing or total
newbies asking questions that have already been answered in the manual.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
===== [ CREDITS ] =====
Found a bunch of notes on several pages which I hit on Google. Feel free
to email me if you have questions -- not that I'm expecting any, since at
the time of typing this (let alone the later update) I think there are
probably less than 1,000 active Demise players left on Earth ;> and those
few that banded together on the few pages and forums seem to be way more
godly than I'll be for a long time to come... and remember, if any parts of
this FAQ were copied from your site (provide links please, I like reading!),
email me and I'll remove it, or if you allow, credit you.
Oh, and Ti-chan, for saving this thing. If she hadn't I'd still be
digging through piles of forum posts from wherever. Good luck wherever you
are, Ti.
Lastly here's a Shout Out to all the Pirate Parties out there. Keep up
the good work guys!
Thanks for reading.
- [ Anti-credits ] -
The thugs who produce starforce.
Scumware and spyware peddlers.
Spammers.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
All trademarks and copyrights contained in this document are owned by their
respective trademark and copyright holders.
This may be not be reproduced under any circumstances except for personal,
private use. It may not be placed on any web site or otherwise distributed
publicly without advance written permission. Use of this guide on any other
web site or as a part of any public display is strictly prohibited, and a
violation of copyright. If you want to put this up on your personal
webpage, email me. This isn't unreasonable; with so few Demise fans out
there, I'd like to know where this may end up.
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